How long do imbred gerbils usually live?

[j]

Just wondering.

[Ritzie/Admin]

Depends! Some inbred gerbils have no problems, other a lot. It depends on the ailment they have.

[sweetie]

Do you have any? If so, how do they appear now? Healthy? Sick?

[Ritzie/Admin]

I had one, which was most likely the daughter of mother and brother.

In that litter all pups were golden agouti! Only some pups stayed with their parents, and .... a black pup appeared! It has to be from one of their sons! Its has lived for 2,5 years.

And I know that one inbred pup has a head that was not so pointed as normal and bend down a bit! It looked great in my opinion, but it was not good. That one is still alive and very healthy. He is about 2 years old.

Inbreeding will cause the that the genes get similar, like AA, aa, DD, KK, etc. Not only colour genes, but all genes. They become homozygous! This will cause that bad genes that cause illness or disformed animals, strange animals, blind, etc. will appear in the genes.

But it depends of course how much "bad genes" the parents have, and which genes become homozygous. Sometimes it is serious and sometimes, they are only blind or cannot reproduce that well. And sometimes they are badly disformed and live not so long.

[Blackiexx]

It's INBRED not imbred

[Ritzie/Admin]

We know! ;D
But sometimes we type to fast!.... and many members have not English as their first language!

[doomgerbiluk]

Inbreedign of gerbils is not as bad as inbreeding of some animals BUT what we need to be aware of, as Peter said, is that the more closely related our gerbils are the more likely it is that any genes that cause problems (including tendency to respiaratory illness, bad temper, deformity etc) will be added togther and produce weaker, sicker animals.
It is fine to inbreed as part of a responsible breeding programme. and even one situation featured recently where brother and sister lived together, and companions for both could be provided by a single litter.
As the siblings themsleves where not inbred and the pups where destined for pets anyway this was not a harmful situation.
I have myself bred two siblings to fix a nice argente line.
But overall inbreeding os to be discouraged, especially if it not a planned part of a breeding programme.
As far as I know unless specific problems occur the lifespan should not be affected.

[Ritzie/Admin]

True, inbreeding is not always bad! Some species are actually very resistant to inbreeding! These species are most of the times species that live on islands or in laboratories!

When species arrive on islands, they are usually with a small number of individuals, so inbreeding is likely to happen. Natural selection will select the healthy animals, so the animals that become unhealthy are selected out of the population. With these animals the "bad" genes will leave the population too. This will cause that the animals are all very genetically alike and have homozygous genes, but they have no or little "bad" genes, so it will cause no problems. However, as they are all genetically alike, they will react the same on e.g. diseases! This can be dangerous too.

In laboratories they like to have genetically alike animals too, because they react the same on an experiment. The bad genes are also selected out of the population! However, some bad characteristics are kept in laboratories, so that they can do research on it.

Our Mongolian gerbils have also a past in laboratories, so that is probably the reason that they are quite resistant to inbreeding problems. A side effect is that fits are relatively common in gerbils, as they are used for research for the nervous system.

Inbreeding is also commonly used to get more gerbils with a specific new colour. To fix for example a nice line with a diluted colour. This is also what doomgerbiluk is talking about. But for this you will need a good breeding program.

For everyone who is just breeding with gerbils I will always recommend against inbreeding!

[doomgerbiluk]

Fully agree Peter.
With the occasional exceptional case (as in the mistaken sexing of siblings) it should be avoided unless done as part of a planned programme, and even then it is rare. BUT if you do have an accidental sibling breeding (as often happens when gerbils are missexed by pet shops) it is not somethign to panic about.
One warning I would give, many commercial breeders and petshops which breed their own stock will have already inbred. This means that breeding from such stock can be a lottery and is one reason why I say choose a good breeder for your animals if possible.

Peter I wonder if part of the resistance to inbreeding problems is due the territorial colony nature of gerbils, presumably dominant female succession must commonly result in father/daughter or brother/sister litters. Although of course there will be more horizontal transfer of genes in these situations than in your island example.

[Ritzie/Admin]

I agree, when you have an accidental sibling breeding it is not something to panic about.

The warning you give is very good! When in the line of ancestors many inbred gerbils can be found, you should be careful, because the percentage of inbreeding / homozygous genes, will than be much higher.

Peter I wonder if part of the resistance to inbreeding problems is due the territorial colony nature of gerbils, presumably dominant female succession must commonly result in father/daughter or brother/sister litters. Although of course there will be more horizontal transfer of genes in these situations than in your island example.

Hmmm.....In the wild the daugthers and sons will normally leave the group when they become sexually mature! They will start their own breeding family! (this is why fightings can occur in captivity, there they cannot leave)

But I think indeed that when the mother or father will die, that a daughter or son will take over (like in captivity), but I'm only guesing this, I'm not sure. And when the pups leave, they can of course also start together a new breeding family! If this is also the case with wild gerbils, I'm not sure! Maybe interesting to search more on this.

With 'island' I mean not only islands in oceans, but all habitats that are isolated! This can also be a fragmented forest, mountain, lake, etc.

This is also why you will see so many different forms, subspecies, and species in those areas! They become genetically isolated and through mutations and selection, genetic drift, etc. their genetics become so different from the founder species that they become a new subspecies or even a species, depends on the timespan!

When a species becomes almost extinct, the same thing happens! Than inbreeding will occur and they become very genetically alike! Sometimes this can mean the end of a species or subspecies, but sometimes they survive and I gues that they than too become quite resistant for inbreeding. But this is not the case with Mongolian gerbils!

[doomgerbiluk]

lol
No I know Peter
sounds you know a great deal more about wild gerbils than I do..must pick yoru brains more
And yes I know about 'islands' including Oasis etc.
I'm a marine biologist Peter

[Ritzie/Admin]

Aha doomgerbiluk! Marine Biologist, great job! Many people dream of becoming that. I study Animal Management, with the specializations Wildlife Management in situ/ex situ, combined with Policy and Communication. This is my final year, by the way.

So we learn much on population management, population genetics, inbreeding, breeding programmes, etc.

[doomgerbiluk]

Fraid its my degree nto my job
I wish
I'm studying for an MSc in Coastal and Marine Resource Management right now and after that who knows??

[sweetie]

Hi,

I must confess, It is not just petshops that sex the gerbils wrong, I did it too. I sexed at 10 days and had 3 boys and 2 girls, well then I sexed again at 5 weeks when I was splitting the litter so that after the birth of Bandit's 2nd litter, I would not have another one. Well lets just say that I now had 2 boys and 3 girls. I thought that I had 3 boys but try as I may, I only found 2 obvious males and thought that if there was another male, it would be as obvious as the brothers' was. I swore at 5 weeks, there where 3 girls. I check feverously since it contradicted my first count. Still could not see any thing different than the females. There was no scrotal coloring or lumps like the sibling males, and there was no difference in the spacing of the area and looked *exactly* like the girls. You could not tell the 3 remaining genitalia apart. I am not saying this to persuade you to not get mad at me. I am telling you this so that you may learn from my grande mistake.

Well I emailed a picture of the newest members to him and he replied that he thought that he had a boy and a girl. I have apologized extensively. I am so embarassed . He is going to email a picture to make sure but in my heart and mind, now I know I was right when I sexed them the first time. I feel horrible! I have offered to drive up and exchange an existing female (from the same litter). I have yet to hear back.

I am asserting that if it truly is a male (and it may be), then his testicles did not descend at the same rate as his 2 brothers. The male siblings had obvious testicles and the other 3 had none! In the future, I will not adopt out until 8-10 weeks to ensure this does not happen again. They are 8 weeks old now so an introduction of the female sibling will go well, however, I am still very upset with myself .

I have made a terrible mistake but feel it necessary to let you all know so perhaps 1) we will be a little more sensitive before *bashing* Pet stores and 2) we will know that testicles drop at different rates for siblings. The owner has had them for 3 weeks and is just noticing it now. In the future, I will also use food coloring to mark the males.

[doomgerbiluk]

Sweetie I have had that too
While the majority of boys have dropped warleir some do seem to be late developers
I had a 7 weeks (i think it was) girl suddenly turn out to be a boy
So don't feel guilty