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Post by betty on Sept 10, 2022 5:45:03 GMT -8
Yes indeed - the tail goes first in more than 75% of illness. Luckily - teeth, ears and eyes can all be seen too so spotting these can certainly kick start the hospital care sooner - increasing the chances of recovery.
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Post by anonymgrill on Dec 25, 2022 22:04:25 GMT -8
Hello, sorry if my question is dumb, but is the color change of these duprasi gerbils a sign of domestication?
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Post by betty on Jan 2, 2023 3:17:32 GMT -8
Sorry for the delay - I read this after you posted it anonymgrill and only today realised that I hadn't actually replied - because it was going to be a long answer and I was on my way to work that morning. Anyway - the short answer could have been: not really - but yes. It is mostly about definitions and happenstance (although I am not expert on the detailed science I will admit - I have just a jist of it). You could loosely say that: humans keeping duprasi outside of their natural habit and then choosing their mates for them (hopefully with traits like calmness, friendliness and non-diseased) is a form of domestication (moreso selective breeding). We are in charge of every aspect of their lives and are hoping to reproduce them to keep as pets/companion animals so in a way we are at the start of the process. Selective breeding is the reason for visual (phenotypical) changes in any animal - whether you meant it to happen or not. So the pied duprasi in the UK appear to be from two animals who both carry the same hidden gene (the one for white patches) and in which case are almost certainly distantly related. These two individuals (the parents) were inadvertantly brought back together through human intervention and reunited - allowing these hidden (recessive) genes to combine - producing white-patch pups*. The original white duprasi in Thailand appears to have popped up spontaneously without any mixing of unknown lines (and therefore no human intervention). It is also not easy to replicate reliably with controlled breeding so it is unclear what type of inheritance pattern it follows, making its origin difficult to understand. Additionally - mutations are a numbers game really. Humans allow duprasi to breed more regularly and reliably - as well as introducing them to many more partners than they would have the chance to meet in the wild - and so we are speeding up the pup-producing numbers. If one female duprasi with a mutation lives in a really harsh location - she may only have 6 pups in her entire life (which might not all survive) - and only with one male limiting the chances of a mutation appearing and becoming common. However in a human setting one female could meet 2 or 3 different males and have ALL her pups survive and go on to breed themselves, increasing the odds of something 'different' happening. Also, and the best part of all I think, is epigenetics - where an animal can carry the genes for a mutation already - but it isn't activated in a 'normal' individual. Only by changing something OUTSIDE of the animal does this mutation 'switch on' so we can see it. Fascinating. Great question. *We still aren't 100% sure if these pups inherited their colour (and so can pass it on to future generations) or whether they are genetically twins with a somatic mutation. The latter would mean that these pups will not be able to pass on the white patches to anyone.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 17, 2023 15:09:54 GMT -8
I have "borrowed" another duprasi holiday guest! A female this time, nearly 3 years old so pretty old but she seems in good health. She has a nice plump tail and a solid build. She's one of those super greasy doops. betty do you know if they are greasy like this in nature or is there something in the domestic environment that causes it? I have to admit, I'm not that keen on the greasy look!
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Post by betty on Aug 19, 2023 5:30:12 GMT -8
I'm not a fan either - but I will say that 9 times out of 10 - leaving in a bowl/jar of chinchilla sand permanently can work wonders. I currently have some pups and left the dust bath in all the time (as there were so many bodies in there) and they always looked lovely - and when I homed most of them and ended up taking it out - they went greasy - dust back in and they switched back in a few days.
I am not sure what they look like in the wild actually as there a re so few (certified) images online of them - but I do know that all the ones kept in South East Asia seemingly NEVER get the greasy coat? They always look like super floofs. So I am wondering if potentially it is a weather-related thing OR because their substrate always looks very dry and kept low-level in most images - I am wondering whether they aren't all suited to our paper/card/fluff based substrates and their coat does better on a more gravel-type set up. Whether the doops themselves are healthier/feel better with a greasy or floofy coat perhaps we will never know. They certainly love the dust though...
I do have some males though who don't always repond to the permanent dust for very long though - maybe their hormones are different or they can't be bothered to do all the rolling over malarkay.
She sounds like a perfect chunky lady - I have a few myself right now around the 3 mark and they have lost a bit of sparkle in their coats too. I need to go out to some charity shops and buy me many more bowls for them!!!
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Post by betty on Aug 19, 2023 5:49:11 GMT -8
Mind you - I just found a great article I haven't seen for ages about them thanks to you asking this - and it says on there that the average weight (in 2008) recorded for wild-caught duprasi was between 22-44g - that is super light!!!!!
On being raised in the labs for several generations - it seems they then averaged around double that at around 50-80g. more like our pet ones.
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Post by betty on Aug 19, 2023 6:11:57 GMT -8
We also have been given an update on the pied duprasi since it was last updated above: It is replicable - so no somatic twins.
It appears to be a readily repeatable mutation - as breeding pied individuals to another pied individual or a related non-pied gives you more pieds. There have currently only been pairings and litters within the same family group - so it is still unclear for sure whether it is dominant or recessive (stats are only a guessing game at this point) but hopefully once pairing occurs between the pied family and an unrelated family will we be able to see if the stats change or not (recessive should noticably change the stats, dominant not so much...).
Still all very interesting - and exciting for the breeder for sure.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 19, 2023 6:38:29 GMT -8
The reported weights for wild Mongolians seem quite low as well but wild gerbils are rarely more than a few months old so many wouldn't be fully grown. I would guess the same could be true for duprasi. Pet gerbils (whether Mongolian or duprasi) are presumably also less active and better fed.
I'm not sure what kind of sand or sand bath she has normally. She's staying in one of my enclosures as her own can't be transported. I know a lot of people are averse to the clay-based sands (e.g sepiolite) these dusts and prefer quartz reptile or play sand, but I'm convinced it doesn't clean coats in the same way as sepiolite.
Interesting about the South East Asian duprasi. I know from hamster groups that they struggle with humidity there and that's one of the reasons they don't tend to use as much bedding as we prefer here. I would have thought that humidity would make greasy coats worse - it certainly seems to make Mongolian gerbils greasy - but maybe the measures to manage that humidity actually help in some way? I also noticed that while wood shavings will absorb urine and then dry out again relatively quickly, paper bedding tends to stay damp for longer so maybe wood-based beddings also control humidity better.
She's very mildly cage defensive and has the most endearing habit of running up to my hand and grabbing or batting it, but not biting (like a hamster would), which I've heard is a duprasi idiosyncracy.
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Aug 19, 2023 13:33:27 GMT -8
I've always wanted to get a doop. They seem so different from regular Mongolians though, so the idea of getting into doops somehow seems a bit depressing right now. Hopefully, I'll be able to get one in the future. Do they generally require the same care as Mongolians? They seem so adorable, and I won't deny that their cute pointed face and marshmallow quality has entranced me as it has many others (forgive my childish idiocy, lol). I'm in the southwest of the United States... Does anyone have any idea where I could get a doop here, if I could get one at all?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 20, 2023 6:17:37 GMT -8
I've always wanted to get a doop. They seem so different from regular Mongolians though, so the idea of getting into doops somehow seems a bit depressing right now. Hopefully, I'll be able to get one in the future. Do they generally require the same care as Mongolians? They seem so adorable, and I won't deny that their cute pointed face and marshmallow quality has entranced me as it has many others (forgive my childish idiocy, lol). I'm in the southwest of the United States... Does anyone have any idea where I could get a doop here, if I could get one at all? Care is generally pretty similar to Mongolians and also very similar to hamster care if you have experience with them. The biggest difference is probably that they are much less agile than Mongolians so need an enclosure with no big drops and platforms etc need to be just a small step up from the substrate or they will struggle. You can't really have a topper with lots of different levels like you might with Mongolians. I think they have a kind of elfin appearance with the big pink ears and pointed faces. They do have a certain charm about them which I guess is why they are rapidly increasing in popularity everywhere. I think (for some people) it may also be because they are stereotypically very "Instagramable" as they move slower and are more photogenic than Mongolians.
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Aug 20, 2023 9:16:44 GMT -8
Okay, so not too much of a difference. That actually makes it a little simpler for me, since I've always had trouble with toppers. Would they be able to manage plastic tunnels? That's something I occasionally set up in the tank for my Mongolians which they seem to really like. Also, do they appreciate deep bedding, or should it be more like a guinea pig or hamster bedding, or maybe somewhere in between? I feel like I have a million questions about them, lol. I haven't had hamsters before, I've heard they tend to be bitey and unsociable so I never thought about getting one before.
Now that you mention it they really do seem to have kind of an elfin appearance. They're quite beautiful, as well as cute, too. You're probably right. With everyone using social media, among Jirds I imagine that Duprasi would probably be a bit more popular than Mongolians, due to the fact that Mongolians often never sit still, and aren't one for pets (on that note, do Doops appreciate pets?) While Duprasi (as far as I know) are quite a bit more laid back. Is it true that they'll even just fall asleep on you? In the realm of Mongolians that seems nearly unheard of, lol.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Aug 22, 2023 10:18:02 GMT -8
Okay, so not too much of a difference. That actually makes it a little simpler for me, since I've always had trouble with toppers. Would they be able to manage plastic tunnels? That's something I occasionally set up in the tank for my Mongolians which they seem to really like. Also, do they appreciate deep bedding, or should it be more like a guinea pig or hamster bedding, or maybe somewhere in between? I feel like I have a million questions about them, lol. I haven't had hamsters before, I've heard they tend to be bitey and unsociable so I never thought about getting one before. Now that you mention it they really do seem to have kind of an elfin appearance. They're quite beautiful, as well as cute, too. You're probably right. With everyone using social media, among Jirds I imagine that Duprasi would probably be a bit more popular than Mongolians, due to the fact that Mongolians often never sit still, and aren't one for pets (on that note, do Doops appreciate pets?) While Duprasi (as far as I know) are quite a bit more laid back. Is it true that they'll even just fall asleep on you? In the realm of Mongolians that seems nearly unheard of, lol. I suppose it depends on how the plastic tunnels are used. Vertical or even gently sloped tunnels (like in the modular type cages) would be a no I think. betty would know more. I don't know how common it is for them to fall asleep on you. I would guess social media might give a skewed perspective there as the cute photos of doops asleep are shared more than the photos where there's just a blur!
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Post by betty on Aug 22, 2023 10:49:15 GMT -8
"The reported weights for wild Mongolians seem quite low as well but wild gerbils are rarely more than a few months old so many wouldn't be fully grown. I would guess the same could be true for duprasi. Pet gerbils (whether Mongolian or duprasi) are presumably also less active and better fed. Absolutely - and although the females caught for most of this study were apparently already pregnant - that doesn't mean they were more than a few months old either. Other pups were taken directly from the nest - so only living life.
"I'm not sure what kind of sand or sand bath she has normally. She's staying in one of my enclosures as her own can't be transported. I know a lot of people are averse to the clay-based sands (e.g sepiolite) these dusts and prefer quartz reptile or play sand, but I'm convinced it doesn't clean coats in the same way as sepiolite. Totally agree - I know they love the sand to move acroos and play in - it is the sepeolite than really brings up the coat.
"Interesting about the South East Asian duprasi. I know from hamster groups that they struggle with humidity there and that's one of the reasons they don't tend to use as much bedding as we prefer here. I would have thought that humidity would make greasy coats worse - it certainly seems to make Mongolian gerbils greasy - but maybe the measures to manage that humidity actually help in some way? I also noticed that while wood shavings will absorb urine and then dry out again relatively quickly, paper bedding tends to stay damp for longer so maybe wood-based beddings also control humidity better. How very interesting - and yes - I have noticed that paper substrates always seem a bit 'cool' or mildly claggy once used.
"She's very mildly cage defensive and has the most endearing habit of running up to my hand and grabbing or batting it, but not biting (like a hamster would), which I've heard is a duprasi idiosyncracy. 100%. The females are very much a one to seemingly lash out with their front feet. Most of the time it is just grabbing at your for food or lifting up - but they just aren't very good at standing on their back legs and reaching up - so they fall over and try again and again - but this all looks like rather like they are savagely trying to attack you if you aren't prepared for it! They don't usually act that way at all outside of the enclosure - it is almost like it is switched off once they are out, and as you say - very endearing.
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Post by betty on Aug 22, 2023 11:12:33 GMT -8
Okay, so not too much of a difference. That actually makes it a little simpler for me, since I've always had trouble with toppers. Would they be able to manage plastic tunnels? That's something I occasionally set up in the tank for my Mongolians which they seem to really like. Also, do they appreciate deep bedding, or should it be more like a guinea pig or hamster bedding, or maybe somewhere in between? I feel like I have a million questions about them, lol. I haven't had hamsters before, I've heard they tend to be bitey and unsociable so I never thought about getting one before. They are fine with any tunnels - as long as they are horizontal or near horizontal. The issues is more the plastic as it can get really sweaty in some instances and so when they poo and pee in it - or sleep in it - you will get the sweat up and doops do not do well in damp-encouraging environments. They will chew plastic too - but not as much as normals thank goodness. Now that you mention it they really do seem to have kind of an elfin appearance. They're quite beautiful, as well as cute, too. You're probably right. With everyone using social media, among Jirds I imagine that Duprasi would probably be a bit more popular than Mongolians, due to the fact that Mongolians often never sit still, and aren't one for pets (on that note, do Doops appreciate pets?) While Duprasi (as far as I know) are quite a bit more laid back. Is it true that they'll even just fall asleep on you? In the realm of Mongolians that seems nearly unheard of, lol. I still have blurry pictures of duprasi tails and noses - but they will genuinely sit still for ages. Duprasi often sit patiently in your hands and fall asleep on their humans - it is true. Some are more nosy than others though and will run off at the slightest hint that you aren't looking - or you stop stroking! Sometimes they freeze still on being picked up or put down - but it doesn't last long - they just wander off when they are ready. However after I won the Best Exotic at the show in January in Doncaster they wanted a picture of my doop as well as the normal gerbil Best In Show. We spent absolutely ages trying to get a picture of the normal gerbil, all three of us moving around, redirecting it, getting blurs - then finally they said it was our turn and I said where do you want her - and then just set her down - and she stayed right there - 5 perfect shots immediately.
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