|
Post by tanzanyte on Jul 14, 2021 13:50:55 GMT -8
I can't believe this I'm so sorry to hear of all the difficulties between Blake and Avon. You sound like you've handled it all amazingly and have been there at the right time to be able to intervene. You've probably already said, but I wanted to check what exactly is in the rotastak? It does seem like there are a number of things occurring rather than pinpointing it to one thing. Its definitely odd that Avon seems to be off his treats. Has there been anything else that might be health related with Avon that could possibly have changed Blakes response to backing down? Even in the picture Avon seems to be longing to get to the wheel. I hope Blake doesn't miss it too much once they are switched around, but didn't he always prefer the sand pen anyway?
|
|
Thea
Member
Posts: 1,012
|
Post by Thea on Jul 16, 2021 9:05:19 GMT -8
Oh I'm so sorry Not sure what advice I can give as I've never experienced much tension between gerbils, but that is such a shame. Fingers crossed it goes well in the end.
|
|
|
Post by Markpd on Jul 17, 2021 6:24:37 GMT -8
Thanks Tan and Thea, yea it's a shame . Not much in the Rotastak, some loo roll tubes, some kitchen paper towelling, some bedding, and a little food scattered through out. Re Avon's health, not that I've noticed to date, as per Thea's weight difference thread, both my boys have lost weight, but still in the good range. Sandpen is short term access only as the lid has to be off the cage for that, I've been swapping them end to end daily to give both some wheel access. Blake thumps when he's put in where Avon was......
|
|
|
Post by Markpd on Jul 24, 2021 8:23:37 GMT -8
Mini update, Blake didn't thump on switching sides last night, and they regularly nose 'kiss' through the divider, I think it's a friendly thing? Btw, I keep thinking about the split intro setup of removing the wheel and most of the bedding. As it is, whoever's in the side without the wheel tends to chew the divider mesh quite a lot, and dig and chew much more overall. If I remove the wheel and most of the bedding I'm sure they are both going to go nuts with boredom! Could an intro be equally successful if the cage was left as is (divided), but swap them for a longer period of time? Hmm, although 1 issue I see with that is that they would likely never make a nest by the divider and sleep together....
|
|
|
Post by Markpd on Jul 26, 2021 13:30:56 GMT -8
No thoughts to my question?
|
|
|
Post by betty on Jul 26, 2021 13:56:13 GMT -8
I wouldn't say it was impossible over time - as they will change their life expectations and as they age they may get more laid back. It would depend on so many differnt factors.
You have nothing to lose though as you are keeping them split ANYWAY so step 1 is complete. Then if you do end up trying an intro and they don't get on - you have lost nothing.
You only have something to gain?
|
|
|
Post by Markpd on Jul 26, 2021 22:29:29 GMT -8
Hmm, ok thank you betty, tricky stuff, and them not likely to make a nest together by the divider, removes a key cue as to when they are likely to be ready for re-intro......
|
|
|
Post by betty on Jul 27, 2021 0:31:48 GMT -8
Not really - mine almost never made a nest together at the dived before I introduced them - I always went on other factors around their behaviours such as what they do when the meet (I always put their food in together across the divide for example so they were nose to nose eating).
|
|
|
Post by Markpd on Jul 27, 2021 11:26:37 GMT -8
Ah ok, that's good to hear , and interesting that they almost never made a nest by the divider, for some reason I thought that was a common thing to happen when split intro's work out. I'll have to try feeding them either side of the divider, did you put the food on the floor either side of the divide or put it in bowls? If on the floor, I'll have to just put a small amount of their food either side of the divide as that would be on their bedding and they'll end up burying it. They regularly nose touch through the divider, and try to get through, which they can't of course so they chew the divider in frustration, I think they want to meet up just to be sociable? There's no thumping, no tail swishing, no flinging themselves at the divider (if gerbils ever do that??). That said, I'm no expert and would like yours and others opinion, so I will try to take a little video of them nose 'kissing'
|
|
|
Post by gerbilord on Jul 28, 2021 9:31:20 GMT -8
Sorry about Avon and Blake's Declan. :/ I can't remember exactly when but around a year ago my two had some trouble, there was a ball fight once or twice (never any blood drawn) but they sorted themselves out, they never had it to the extent of having to split up though. As for the nose kissing, my two definitely did this, I read somewhere that this is them sniffing the saliva in each other's mouth and therefore understanding the scents, similar to when they smell under their tummies at the scent gland area. I don't know if this is true or not.
|
|
|
Post by Markpd on Jul 28, 2021 11:26:59 GMT -8
Thanks, and interesting, how did you know it wasn't going to escalate? Or was their nearly always someone keeping an eye on them? Did you post a thread about it at the time? (If so, I'd like to read it to glean any details). My boys didn't draw blood either AFAIK, but it seemed like it would be the next stage, and I'm by myself here and working full time, so they are by themselves a lot. I couldn't risk them (or Avon rather) going to a full on fight. Re nose kissing, yea my boys did that before falling out too, so I hope it's a friendly greeting of sorts. bettyI forgot to ask, what were the other factors? (feeding by the divider aside, which I also forgot to do!).
|
|
|
Post by gerbilord on Jul 28, 2021 12:41:27 GMT -8
I didn't know it wasn't going to escalate, we just kept checking on them and it wasn't getting worse, they weren't chasing each other more than once every day at most, so we decided to keep a close eye on them. There's six of us so there was always someone around to peak at them. (Except at night of course.) I did post a thread about it, I'll have a look for it later.
|
|
|
Post by betty on Jul 29, 2021 15:51:18 GMT -8
Well, in my own experience - I tended to go on things like overall relaxness?
So often they would start wired up a bit - always charging around - super reactive and eager to do something - anything. Like I said - I always scatter fed at the divide and watched them eat close to or near each other. Early days they didn't always eat together or would grab and run - then later they progressed to just eating side by side or at least in sight of each other.
I watched what they did on first swapping sides, and again, once they calmed down on that aspect it was getting closer. They still sometimes tore up and moved the bed - but not straight away or not because it was someone else's - just because they wanted to.
Divide climbing, sleeping apart and moving the nest never stopped me doing an intro if I thought they were relaxed enough.
I did work more on the distraction technique than the absence style, and patience, oh so much patience on the intro and in the hours and weeks afterwards.
|
|
|
Post by Markpd on Jul 29, 2021 22:25:57 GMT -8
Ok, thanks Patient in what respect?
|
|
|
Post by betty on Jul 30, 2021 4:58:38 GMT -8
My abundance of caution. I am very patient with the whole process of getting them together where others want to see them together and back in their full enclosure as soon as possible.
I would rather have mine stay in the split tank (divide removed) for at least a week before changing enclosure, longer if they were trouble to get together, and then only put all that same substrate in the new enclosure only. I don't go to full depth or much additional enrichment for at least another week (they will have a few bendy bridges and cardboard by then of course) and then I build on top of the existing substrate (removing no more than 50% at a time each week) rather than a full swap.
So for an average intro, most of my splits take a minimum of a month from going into the split to being back in their own enclosure (with existing substrate). And then another month or part substrate changes and gradual enrichment offerings before they are 100% together as normal.
Some of my pairings could well have been ok with each other sooner than I gave them, but I had quite a bit of hit and miss in the early days and decided after many a sleepless night or worry-watching - why not just give them way longer than they need anyway and then I don't have to keep going back on my progress or start worrying about them just before bed time when they were most active!
I suppose for comparison; that if it is certain that all gerbils will be fine together after a month, and some might be after 2 weeks to (but still will be in a month), I would rather slowly creep towards that month end in careful stages than try to reach the two weeks and find out that they needed the month.
It is like jumping up to queue at the departure gate when you have a reserved seat on the plane - just so you are doing something right then. You will still be able to get on the plane whether you stand up for half an hour in the queue, shuffling forward and holding all your bags; than if you stay comfy in your seat, reading your book and not carrying your bag. Why join the queue early on when it makes no real difference either way to your seat or the departure time - wait until the bulk have boards and then 'queue' at the end when it isn't a queue at all.
I am not saying either is right or wrong of course, just that I opted for the low-stress but seemingly longer version.
|
|