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Post by Markpd on Feb 14, 2023 12:32:00 GMT -8
Interesting, I hope it continues to work out.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 3, 2023 17:17:58 GMT -8
Well, they've been back in the main tank (minus the topper shelves) for a couple of weeks now and there's still no sign of trouble. They have their new Tictac wheel which they share perfectly amicably and I'm gradually building up the bedding. I don't foresee giving them the topper shelves back any time soon. I feel like I narrowly averted serious trouble and don't want to take any chances. I do think there was a high chance it could have led to a declan if I hadn't noticed what was going on. So I suppose the moral of the story is that early intervention can prevent declans.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 3, 2023 17:22:35 GMT -8
Great to hear I wonder if I'd intervened earlier with my boys whether I could have avoided their declan? (rhetorical question). Next time I will be more proactive I think.
And how are they getting on with the big wheel? Have they learnt to moderate acceleration? Or have you corked lined it? Do you ever seem them run in tandem on it?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 3, 2023 17:29:46 GMT -8
They never run tandem. They're too good at taking turns for that! They're actually very polite to each other when there isn't a topper skewing the dynamic.
I'm still thinking about cork-lining it because although they can turn it fine, they slip around a bit and the sound of claws on metal is also a bit noisy. Could you remind me where you bought the cork for your wheel?
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Post by Markpd on Mar 3, 2023 17:47:50 GMT -8
Hmm, good question, I either bought it off ebay or Amazon, IIRC I just searched for model railway underlay. I don't remember the specific seller, but I might be able to find out. I need to buy some more myself thinking about it, the lining fell off of the larger wheel when I cleaned it a couple of weeks ago (it was the later wheel, but I had problems sticking the cork to it for some reason).
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Post by Markpd on Mar 4, 2023 18:43:35 GMT -8
Oh and nice to hear they take turns , Blake and Avon would sometimes be patient and wait, other times the waiting one would just jump on mid flight! Often with funny results
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 23, 2023 13:35:05 GMT -8
So there was a slight setback. I added a small platform to the tank to hold their water bottle. At first it seemed fine but after a few days I noticed Astra bullying Twiglet on the platform, and Twiglet doing the "excessively polite" act around her. I think it triggered the territorial desire in her. So I immediately moved them back to the smaller tank for a week to stabilise the situation. Like before, they immediately calmed down and I moved them back to the main tank (minus platform) today. They do technically have one platform but it's entirely taken up by their wheel so I don't think Astra views it as a territory she can claim.
They did have a small spat in the sand bath when I put them back in the main tank, but Twiglet argued back strongly and it ended with Twiglet winning and Astra running away with her tail between her legs (figuratively) so I wasn't too worried. I think that arguments per se aren't necessarily too concerning if the dominant gerbil stands up for herself. It's when Astra was picking arguments and Twiglet wasn't even arguing back that I was worried.
Twiglet is very large (over 90g now, and she's not even chubby, just genuinely large) and perfectly capable of being assertive if she wants to, but I think being bossy is not her natural way of being, nor her preferred way of relating to other gerbils (she would much rather just be nice and get along), so even a smaller but more ambitious gerbil can take advantage of her in the right context. I suppose I just need to control the context to make sure she isn't taken advantage of, and mainly that seems to mean not giving them any platforms or shelves, especially ones that contain valuable resources such as water.
I hope that I'm not just delaying the inevitable here but maybe Astra will calm down as she gets older. They're 11 months old now.
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Post by Markpd on Mar 23, 2023 13:50:23 GMT -8
Interesting, and tricky! It seems you really have to be on the ball when giving new stuff to your girls! I wonder how many other gerbils are this tricky?
Glad you spotted it anyway and hopefully nipped that bud in time.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 23, 2023 14:25:50 GMT -8
I think the signs of trouble here have been very subtle and (while not wanting to sound boastful) could have been easily missed. I think many declans probably start like this but aren't noticed until the intense chasing stage.
I had a very similar experience last summer with some male gerbils I was looking after. One brother (B) started bullying the other (S), and S was doing the same "overly polite", "tiptoeing around his brother" thing that Twiglet did. I moved them to a small tank and gradually increased their space over a few weeks and they settled down. I'm not certain about this, but when I used to look after these boys when they were younger, I always had the impression that S was dominant. After they had those problems during last summer, B was definitely dominant. So I wonder if maybe there was a switch. Often what happens in these cases is the ex-dominant gerbil is chased away, and I could see the beginnings of that in how B was bullying him. In this case, they were very evenly matched in size and weight so it's understandable how there could be some ambiguity when it comes to dominance. Anyway, I was very careful with them all summer and then I sent them home with some special instructions, and waited in dread for the message saying "help, our gerbils are chasing and covered in blood!" Fortunately that message never came and they stayed together until B died a month ago. I'm pretty sure B remained a bit of a bully but the clan was at least stabilised it seems.
Of course when you react to very early potential signs of trouble, you can never be totally sure what would have happened if you hadn't acted - whether they would have settled on their own or not - but I'd never want to take the risk.
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Post by betty on Mar 24, 2023 1:46:20 GMT -8
Absolutely. It - declanning - is often not spotted until the chasing stage as until you have had many gerbils - or at least had a declan you had to deal with yourself - you certainly would be missing most of the signs as they start so subtle.
I think gerbil behaviour is an experience you have to live yourself - watching those moves and remembering them is the first step. If you haven't seen something happen first and only see the result of that then - at first - you always will assume things based on just that. Only once you have seen both the cause and effect can we be sure we are 'seeing into the future' potentially.
That is certainly the one big downside of acting on something far ahead - like in your quick action on seeing possible conflict - is that you (hopefully) prevent that very thing from happening and so noone will know that your actions were succesful. But like you said - better to act than not.
As for adding solid stuff with a tense pair - especially a sand bath - it can really up their behaviours.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Mar 26, 2023 6:03:30 GMT -8
There is so much to learn about gerbil behaviour! I wish it wasn't necessary for each gerbil owner to go through all the negative experience but there were more sources for information available so that we could learn from other's mistakes instead of having to make them ourselves.
Regarding the water bottle, wouldn't it be wise to have two water bottles? Not just in this case but generally?
Regarding Astra and Twiglet, speaking of "delaying the inevitable" seems a plausible thought here. It seems to me that if there is trouble once, there will always be potential for more trouble. I hope it will go well with them. Keep us updated, Lily & Daisy!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Mar 27, 2023 3:29:15 GMT -8
There is so much to learn about gerbil behaviour! I wish it wasn't necessary for each gerbil owner to go through all the negative experience but there were more sources for information available so that we could learn from other's mistakes instead of having to make them ourselves. Regarding the water bottle, wouldn't it be wise to have two water bottles? Not just in this case but generally? Regarding Astra and Twiglet, speaking of "delaying the inevitable" seems a plausible thought here. It seems to me that if there is trouble once, there will always be potential for more trouble. I hope it will go well with them. Keep us updated, Lily & Daisy! Two water bottles can help reduce tension but I think in some cases it's not really about the water as such, but more about one gerbil wanting to make a point. In this case, I think it's possible I only noticed the bullying because Twiglet had to go to the platform or to the topper to get water. Being the polite gerbil she is, if she hadn't had to go there for water, she might have just avoided the area to keep the peace. When they had the topper, it also had a second floor which was purely for enrichment since it didn't contain any essential resources such as food or water. Astra always spent a lot more time up there than Twiglet. I always assumed that was just down to Twiglet's personal preference (she's always been less adventurous than Astra), but now I wonder.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Apr 6, 2023 2:02:49 GMT -8
Lily&Daisy, another week has gone, all still good with those two?
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Apr 6, 2023 2:44:35 GMT -8
Lily&Daisy, another week has gone, all still good with those two? I still felt a bit uneasy with them in the big main tank (even without the topper). I don't know why, everything just didn't seem completely right. Maybe at this point there's too much "history" associated with that enclosure and maybe Astra views it as the enclosure where she can take liberties. So I decided to give up on that enclosure for the foreseeable future and I've completely dismantled it. The gerbils are now in my smallest 60cm where they seem, once again, absolutely fine, and in a few weeks I will move them up to my 95cm Marrakesh terrarium. I have a divider made to fit this tank so I can increase their space gradually. The main tank was about 100x50cm and 55cm high so there won't be that much difference between it and the Marrakesh once they have all the space but it just seems to cause issues for whatever reason. I won't rule out moving them back to the main tank but I'm basically expecting the Marrakesh to be their permanent home now. They just seem so much more relaxed and more natural in a smaller tank. This is not the first time I have noticed this. Although this was quite a different scenario, I once had an elderly gerbil (Daisy) and a young gerbil (Tilly) in that enclosure with the topper and when Daisy's health started to decline she started behaving strangely. She was basically acting like Tilly was an aggressor trying to challenge her. She would alternate between acting very nervous and wary of Tilly and then being excessively dominant, for example suddenly chasing her. I could be wrong as obviously the subtleties of gerbil body language go over our heads, but after watching Tilly closely I couldn't see any evidence that she was the problem. My assessment was that Daisy's knowledge that she was getting weaker and Tilly was growing, plus potentially the direct effects of the illness on her brain, made her paranoid and caused her to imagine slights and affronts that probably didn't actually happen, or at least to overexaggerate minor things that did happen. Anyway, I moved them to a smaller (80cm) cage and they calmed right down, and Daisy seemed much happier. I think Daisy liked having less space to have to defend, and being able to see what Tilly was doing at all times. Daisy didn't live very long after that. On her last day she had some kind of seizure and went completely delirious, and had to be put to sleep. So I didn't get to see how it would play out long term. Obviously the current situation is quite different in that Twiglet is definitely not imagining things here nor has she been overreacting but I think both cases show how sometimes a smaller enclosure (even if temporary) can smooth certain situations over.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Apr 6, 2023 9:01:31 GMT -8
Thanks for the extensive answer. This is so interesting, but also so complicated.
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