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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 4, 2023 15:16:46 GMT -8
Then I added the cardboard to the sides and she calmed down, which was interestingCurious, perhaps she didn't like the open viewed sides? Maybe! I've never thought of her as nervous in any way. She's such a confident gerbil. But maybe she still didn't like the acrylic sides for some reason. I've noticed that gerbils will sometimes spot their own reflections in acrylic and they will also react to movement on the other side (for example if I put my finger on the outside of an acrylic wall, they will sometimes come up to have a look), which they don't tend to do with glass, so maybe it looks different to them in some way. I've removed the divider now so they have the whole Eco Habitat and everything's still fine. They're being really nice together. I'm going to leave the cardboard up for the foreseeable future just in case it's important.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jul 11, 2023 15:28:20 GMT -8
A funny incident this evening. I felt bad about mildly neglecting the gerbils recently due to being busy with other things, so I was going through my treat box to find something extra special to give them. I found a bottle of flax oil that I use sometimes for improving fur or general condition and decided to see if the gerbils would like a drop of it off my finger (Astra's very good at licking malt paste off my finger without biting). Well they loved it so much it turned them feral, especially Astra. They were pushing and shoving and getting very cross with each other, so I was a bit worried, and then they started attacking my hand (not enough to draw blood, but enough to hurt). Then when I removed my hand, Astra start searching through the bedding desperately trying to find out where the delicious flax oil went. I had to give them a big pile of food to distract them and help them forget about it. They're fine now, but ... no more flax oil. It's like some kind of drug. They're normally such well-mannered gerbils!
Although this may be worth remembering next time I need to give a gerbil antibiotics or any other bad-tasting medication.
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Jul 11, 2023 18:28:54 GMT -8
That is a great story! That's interesting, I've never seen that type of reaction to flax seeds or flax seed oil, although I haven't used it much so I suppose concerning that there's really a lot I wouldn't be familiar with. I'm jealous of having something they love, it seems they turn their noses up at everything I give them. I would definitely keep that in mind for future antibiotics or medications! I've always had trouble with that
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Post by Markpd on Jul 14, 2023 16:11:22 GMT -8
A funny incident this evening. I felt bad about mildly neglecting the gerbils recently due to being busy with other things, so I was going through my treat box to find something extra special to give them. I found a bottle of flax oil that I use sometimes for improving fur or general condition and decided to see if the gerbils would like a drop of it off my finger (Astra's very good at licking malt paste off my finger without biting). Well they loved it so much it turned them feral, especially Astra. They were pushing and shoving and getting very cross with each other, so I was a bit worried, and then they started attacking my hand (not enough to draw blood, but enough to hurt). Then when I removed my hand, Astra start searching through the bedding desperately trying to find out where the delicious flax oil went. I had to give them a big pile of food to distract them and help them forget about it. They're fine now, but ... no more flax oil. It's like some kind of drug. They're normally such well-mannered gerbils! Although this may be worth remembering next time I need to give a gerbil antibiotics or any other bad-tasting medication. That's crazy! lol
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 6, 2023 10:28:00 GMT -8
Unfortunately the gerbils have "relapsed". I was woken up on Sunday morning by the sound of Astra chasing Twiglet. It didn't seem like the really intense chasing of a proper declan but it also didn't sound normal.
The strange thing was, I noticed zero signs of trouble leading up to this. With the previous episodes, there was a weird atmosphere between them, with Twiglet seeming uneasy and on edge, but this time I didn't observe anything like that. The chasing just came out of the blue. I'm tempted to think they might have just had a minor dispute that got a little out of hand and I saw the end of it without the previous context. But I also don't believe in taking chances with this kind of thing, so they're back in a 60cm for stabilisation and as usual they are fine (except that Astra is furious about the small space).
They'll be in the small 60cm tank for a few weeks and then I'm not sure what I will do. They were back in the Eco Habitat for 4 months and everything seemed fine but maybe things were just gradually brewing. I don't like the Marrakesh terrarium as it's so low but I have an 80cm Bucatstate enclosure now, which is taller, so maybe that would work.
I really thought Astra had outgrown this and I didn't need to worry anymore but I think I might need to accept that this pair are permanently very sensitive and I will probably always need to be careful with their cage setup. However I am also optimistic that since they haven't properly declanned yet, hopefully if I'm careful and vigilent, they never will. It seems to be that if they were seriously headed that way, they would have done it by now. They're 18 months old now and their issues started 9 months ago.
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Post by TJ's Rodent Ranch on Nov 6, 2023 21:09:57 GMT -8
I'm sorry to hear about that. It does seem like it could have been a dispute, but definitely better safe than sorry. Fingers crossed it was just something minor.
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Post by betty on Nov 9, 2023 7:44:31 GMT -8
They are certainly giving you a run for your money aren't they - little tinkers!
I agree - they are highly sensitive - but not a full declan. I have had one pair of sistes like this, always stressing and staring each other out - but cuddles all the rest of the time.
I did feel a bit sorry for the less dominant one though - always living in the shadows.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 9, 2023 13:04:31 GMT -8
They are certainly giving you a run for your money aren't they - little tinkers! I agree - they are highly sensitive - but not a full declan. I have had one pair of sistes like this, always stressing and staring each other out - but cuddles all the rest of the time. I did feel a bit sorry for the less dominant one though - always living in the shadows. Unfortunately in this case it seems like the problem is the less dominant gerbil (Astra) not wanting to live in the shadows! Apparently even as a pup she was the boldest of the litter, and always the first to do anything. Unfortunately for her she's just so small, and Twiglet is so big. Did your pair remain together for life? Did you ever have take measures to stop things escalating, such as reducing their space temporarily?
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Post by Markpd on Nov 10, 2023 16:50:04 GMT -8
Sorry to hear that trouble was brewing again, hopefully you can get them to settle down again. And thanks for keeping us posted
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Post by betty on Nov 11, 2023 3:39:20 GMT -8
Yes, they lived together right up until one of them passed. They were one of my most memorable pairs for sure.
There were things I had to do if I was ever going to get them out of the enclosure - like do it in a certain order which often meant the dominant one out first and distracted like it was all about them - and then get the other one out secretly and do what was needed - and then blending them back together and cover my tracks before returning them to their own enclosure. The dominant one could never know that she wasn't the centre of everything or that anything had happened behind her back otherwise there were scuffles.
It wasn't easy - but then there was this one time - in a temporary tank (always when in a temporary tank) that they managed to slide open the lid and escape. They had a great time I presume - together - running around the lounge. When I came back in I saw the lid open and said 'hey guys where are you?' and they both came running back to me. This was the only time ever where the bully didn't do any bullying when they both went back in the tank. Interesting dynamics.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Nov 11, 2023 7:25:12 GMT -8
Yes, they lived together right up until one of them passed. They were one of my most memorable pairs for sure. There were things I had to do if I was ever going to get them out of the enclosure - like do it in a certain order which often meant the dominant one out first and distracted like it was all about them - and then get the other one out secretly and do what was needed - and then blending them back together and cover my tracks before returning them to their own enclosure. The dominant one could never know that she wasn't the centre of everything or that anything had happened behind her back otherwise there were scuffles. It wasn't easy - but then there was this one time - in a temporary tank (always when in a temporary tank) that they managed to slide open the lid and escape. They had a great time I presume - together - running around the lounge. When I came back in I saw the lid open and said 'hey guys where are you?' and they both came running back to me. This was the only time ever where the bully didn't do any bullying when they both went back in the tank. Interesting dynamics. Interesting. Astra is never really "petty" like that. She doesn't care about Twiglet getting attention or treats (not any more than the norm anyway). Twiglet hates being out of the cage so she doesn't really come out much to run around but occasionally I might let Astra out on her own, and that's always fine. The few times Twiglet is away from the cage for a slightly longer period, that also seems fine aside from the usual brief bottom sniffing on her return. 95% of the time Astra seems perfectly laid back but just has these "uprisings" from time to time. Your escape anecdote reminds me of the time I accidentally left their cage open and Astra got out and came and found where I was working in another room! Twiglet doesn't dare leave the cage even when it's open. She just sits at the cage door staring at the great beyond...
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Feb 12, 2024 11:20:51 GMT -8
I have another update, not a great one unfortunately, but not the worst. After a couple of months of stability in a slightly smaller, fairly simple enclosure, tensions flared up again over the weekend. It started with underground running noises that I had a gut feeling didn't seem quite right, but the gerbils would pop their heads above ground and look normal so I let it go, thought maybe I was overthinking it. If there's one thing I keep discovering over and over again when it comes to gerbils, it's that gut feelings practically always have truth in them. Today, I saw Astra rush across the tank and go into a scuffle with Twiglet which included that kind of "fake biting" I usually only see when pups are squabbling (you can see an example here). It's normal for pups but I don't think it's normal for adults. In about November somebody suggested to me the possibility of separating the gerbils preemptively and finding them new friends, and at first I hated the idea. I didn't like the idea of separating the gerbils before they had actually declanned, and me never knowing if I had done so unnecessarily or not. But the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. While they did seem to have stretches of several months sometimes where they seemed happy and relaxed, I know that Twiglet must have suffered stress during the times there was tension, and who knows what kind of long term stress she might be feeling? It was having an impact on me too, never knowing when the next bout of tension was going to flare up. At the time I was awaiting news about a litter I was hoping to adopt gerbils from anyway, so I decided that if there were girls in that litter, I was going to separate Astra and Twiglet and introduce a pup to each of them. Unfortunately that litter didn't work out so there were no pups to adopt, and Astra and Twiglet remained together, but I did keep the idea of separation in the back of mind as a possibility. It actually gave me a lot of mental relief to know that I had a plan if things did escalate. Plan A was to try to keep them together, but Plan B was to separate them and find them both new friends. When I saw that scuffle earlier today I made a snap decision that it was time for Plan B. Even though it wasn't a ball fight and there was no bloodshed, I didn't like the look of it at all. Astra had a very intense and determined air about her when she was rushing across the tank to pin Twiglet down and I'm sure this was something serious as opposed to a minor quarrel. I also wasn't willing to go through the whole thing of putting them in a small tank for several weeks again and then moving them back to a bigger one, for a few weeks or months until things flare up again. I've noticed that every successive bout of tension has been more severe, and has occurred more suddenly, with less prior warning. It started with just a weird atmosphere between the two, and Twiglet acting wary around Astra. Then with the next bout of conflict, Astra was chasing Twiglet. And now they're having scuffles. Logically, the next step would have been bloodshed, likely very sudden bloodshed. So separation was the only good option here. I have moved Astra to a temporary tank until I can set up a new enclosure. I also feel that the gerbils themselves have drawn a line in the sand. I would have put them in a permanent split until they find new friends, but even just a few hours after that scuffle, Astra reacted aggressively when Twiglet was held near her for a moment (the sentimental part of me wanted a last photo of them together). And Twiglet has been heavily scent marking their enclosure ever since she realised Astra had gone. I think they've crossed a line and there's no going back now. They'll hopefully both be getting new friends quite soon, and I'll update when that happens. So it's not the outcome I wanted for these two, but I have to be thankful that I was able to separate them before any harm was done, and I didn't have to come home to find two injured gerbils (or worse).
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Post by betty on Feb 13, 2024 5:28:55 GMT -8
Good choice - like you - I don't want to regret not acting sooner if it escalated - especially as we can only see these squabbles when we are in the room. I have no idea what percentage of the overall squabbles we can even hope to see is represented by the few times we do see something.
You certainly gave them every possible chance - I mean the lengths you have gone to are way beyond what most keepers could - and it is real bad luck that it just didn't work out even after all that time.
You have however (even if there was stress involved at times) - avoided serious or permanent injuries - which is all we can hope for with a declan.
We look forward to hearing about the next stages in their lives...
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Feb 17, 2024 3:55:50 GMT -8
Any updates here, Lily&Daisy?
I have to admit that I'm relieved these guys are finally apart after all teh troubles between them. Good to hear that you managed to separate them before someone got injured.
Do you think they will be able to have a stable relationship with other gerbils? They've been living in a state of tension with each other for so long, won't that have an impact on their social abilities? It's amazing how you've been able to keep it from escalating for such a long time.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Feb 17, 2024 7:30:07 GMT -8
Any updates here, Lily&Daisy? I have to admit that I'm relieved these guys are finally apart after all teh troubles between them. Good to hear that you managed to separate them before someone got injured. Do you think they will be able to have a stable relationship with other gerbils? They've been living in a state of tension with each other for so long, won't that have an impact on their social abilities? It's amazing how you've been able to keep it from escalating for such a long time. Twiglet seems quite happy and relaxed. I thought she would struggle being alone since she's the quieter of the two, but she's probably just relieved to be away from Astra. I'm sure she will be happier still when she has a new friend. Astra is not very happy. In hindsight, I think I made a mistake removing her from the enclosure instead of Twiglet. It wasn't an intentional thing, I just grabbed whichever gerbil I could after that scuffle, and that happened to be Astra. But she was very cross all the rest of the day after I had moved her to another tank, and on reflection, I can understand why. She's spent the last several months attempting to usurp Twiglet and make their territory her own, and when she is finally able to take physical action towards that goal, she gets removed from that territory and given a smaller one, which doesn't even contain her favourite wheel, because it doesn't fit (she has a smaller wheel), but she can hear Twiglet using it. I'd be furious too. It would have been better to remove Twiglet. That would likely have been easier on her too, as she would have realised quickly that she was in a safe space without Astra, rather than wondering for hours whether Astra was going to come back. What's done is done, but I'll remember for the future, and thought I'd point it out for others, that it's probably more ideal to remove the victim in a declan. In terms of having stable relationships with other gerbils, these are my thoughts: I find it perplexing that Twiglet, despite her massive size, wasn't able to keep Astra under her thumb. I think that might point to a meekness on her part, as well as Astra just being very determined. Due to Twiglet's size, I find it hard to imagine her fitting into a subordinate role. I just think there might be too much ambiguity there. I'm very unlikely to find a female gerbil who is bigger than Twiglet. So I would like to bond her with a younger and smaller gerbil, and hope that gerbil doesn't grow up to be like Astra. Twiglet did used to be more bossy when she was younger. You can see her giving Astra a ticking off in the photo in my signature. It seemed like she lost her edge as she grew older, but I think she does have the capacity to be dominant. Maybe Astra was just a bit much for her. Astra concerns me a bit, because she's a gerbil who is really small, but wants to be dominant, and that might make things tricky. I think she needs to dominant in her next pair, and the best option will be a pup who should slip easily into a subordinate role, and hopefully stay there, even if she grows up to be bigger than Astra. I don't think there will be any impact on their social abilities. Both gerbils seem to have basically normal, or quite good, social skills. I think gerbils are probably more likely to be adversely affected in terms of their social functioning by things that happen when they are pups (like humans really). If they were socialised well as pups (which these two were), and are also mentally/cognitively normal, they should generally be able to navigate even difficult social situations later in life, unless perhaps there's some huge trauma like a very nasty physical declan (again, like humans). I don't think this declan was quite that traumatic, as far as I can tell, and I suspect the tension was more of a background thing than an everyday thing that affected all their interactions, aside from the times it flared up, although we can never be sure what's going on between a pair. I have found some potential new friends for them, but I probably won't say any more until it's more definite.
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