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Post by Markpd on May 8, 2023 14:04:04 GMT -8
Lol, darn censorship, and I know it will have changed that to darn
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 19, 2023 11:29:39 GMT -8
Update: the gerbils have the whole Marrakesh now and a full tank setup with deep bedding, tunnels, house, sand bath etc. They're still totally fine. All that's missing is a wheel but I need to make a raised lid for that. So it looks like the Marrakesh is their new home now. (I still need to attach the hinge to the lid) Astra looks very sly in this photo. Hopefully she's not plotting anything (she's being very good really)
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Post by Markpd on May 19, 2023 16:01:22 GMT -8
Great to hear
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Post by tanzanyte on May 20, 2023 8:15:20 GMT -8
I'm so pleased it's going well. Such cute pics too! Hopefully they are ok without a wheel for a bit to give you time to get it sorted. They are probably super happy to have the full run of the place now. It's funny how reducing the space helps sort any discontent out. My step daughter does it quite a bit if her rats gets feisty with one another and if that doesn't work then taking them out in a carrier to our house usually does the trick and they cuddle up and are fine after they get home. I guess a little bit of fear makes you thankful for family/cage mates!
It'd be interesting to know how much tank lay out and toppers have to do with declans. It's not something I'd considered but I have a large wooden bendy bridge acting as a barrier in my marrakesh, originally to stop the bedding going on the wheel until I could trust them to be outside together. I have only recently moved the wheel outside now, but the wooden bridge is still in there. They like hopping up on to it and walking along to get picked up. I do wonder if sectioning areas off might not help as it might cause more territory issues. It's all so complex!
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Post by LilyandDaisy on May 20, 2023 10:29:18 GMT -8
I moved things around a bit last night and managed to fit an 8 inch wheel in the tank. It's not as big as I'd like but it's mainly Astra who likes the wheel and she's very small so it will do for now. I think Astra ran for about 2 hours last night, making up for lost time! The smaller/simpler space technique seems to help with many rodents: rats, mice, gerbils, dwarf hamsters, maybe others. Rat and mouse introductions are essentially based around this technique as you start with them in a very small empty carrier and build on from there. I remember ps25 mentioned toppers caused problems for their gerbils and at the time I read that and thought "well that's interesting to know, but my gerbils are fine with toppers". And then they weren't! I'm not sure whether tank dividers could also be a problem. I don't tend to use them in my tanks. I think it depends on the gerbils really as some pairs are almost "bombproof" and others are much more sensitive.
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Post by betty on May 22, 2023 9:03:07 GMT -8
Indeed - I have learned to always add the words 'so far' to any statements about my gerbils - there is always something else going on out there to find out about...
As for your tank dividers - I am the same - I avoid them. Sometimes gerbils temporarily end up with a divide they made themselves, but I always like to know that there are at least 3 ways in, out or around my more solid structure items - just incase it is a pinch point. There are certainly some people I wish I didn't have to walk past at work multiple times a day - so I know how they feel when there is only one route to choose from.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jun 4, 2023 11:16:33 GMT -8
Toppers can cause problems, tank dividers can cause problems - so how should a gerbilarium ideally be set up? This is a crucial question I keep asking myself. I want my gerbils to have a deep bedding area, but also a wheel and a sand bath which need to be protected from bedding. The only way of providing this is by creating separate areas. Dilemma, dilemma.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 5, 2023 3:42:25 GMT -8
Toppers can cause problems, tank dividers can cause problems - so how should a gerbilarium ideally be set up? This is a crucial question I keep asking myself. I want my gerbils to have a deep bedding area, but also a wheel and a sand bath which need to be protected from bedding. The only way of providing this is by creating separate areas. Dilemma, dilemma. The other option is to have the wheel, sand bath etc on platforms. If there are concerns around the platforms causing territorial behaviour, you can make them just big enough to hold the wheel/sand bath, so there's no extra for a gerbil to "claim". This is what I'm doing at the moment with Astra and Twiglet. Many gerbils are just fine with toppers and tank dividers though. The first pair to live in my Eco Habitat with the topper (Lily and Daisy) were totally fine there. They were a very solid pair though. I think it's probably not a good enclosure for a pair with existing tensions.
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Post by icecontroller2529 on Jun 5, 2023 6:02:18 GMT -8
Toppers can cause problems, tank dividers can cause problems - so how should a gerbilarium ideally be set up? This is a crucial question I keep asking myself. I want my gerbils to have a deep bedding area, but also a wheel and a sand bath which need to be protected from bedding. The only way of providing this is by creating separate areas. Dilemma, dilemma. The other option is to have the wheel, sand bath etc on platforms. If there are concerns around the platforms causing territorial behaviour, you can make them just big enough to hold the wheel/sand bath, so there's no extra for a gerbil to "claim". This is what I'm doing at the moment with Astra and Twiglet. Many gerbils are just fine with toppers and tank dividers though. The first pair to live in my Eco Habitat with the topper (Lily and Daisy) were totally fine there. They were a very solid pair though. I think it's probably not a good enclosure for a pair with existing tensions. Well, having the wheel etc. on platforms means there is no deep bedding. In my case: I do use platforms. My enclosures are 50 cm high (I think that is 20 inches). The wheel is officially 28 cm high (without the stand, I think), a plateau would be about 16 cm high, it all JUST fits in my gerbilarium. If I don't separate the wheel from the digging area I will have to restrict the bedding to about 15 cm, which is hardly a good amount of bedding for gerbils to build tunnel systems. I prefer to have 30 to 40 cm of bedding and split the tank into two areas, but then it takes a divider (or a topper). I wish there was a solution ...
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 5, 2023 8:59:36 GMT -8
The other option is to have the wheel, sand bath etc on platforms. If there are concerns around the platforms causing territorial behaviour, you can make them just big enough to hold the wheel/sand bath, so there's no extra for a gerbil to "claim". This is what I'm doing at the moment with Astra and Twiglet. Many gerbils are just fine with toppers and tank dividers though. The first pair to live in my Eco Habitat with the topper (Lily and Daisy) were totally fine there. They were a very solid pair though. I think it's probably not a good enclosure for a pair with existing tensions. Well, having the wheel etc. on platforms means there is no deep bedding. In my case: I do use platforms. My enclosures are 50 cm high (I think that is 20 inches). The wheel is officially 28 cm high (without the stand, I think), a plateau would be about 16 cm high, it all JUST fits in my gerbilarium. If I don't separate the wheel from the digging area I will have to restrict the bedding to about 15 cm, which is hardly a good amount of bedding for gerbils to build tunnel systems. I prefer to have 30 to 40 cm of bedding and split the tank into two areas, but then it takes a divider (or a topper). I wish there was a solution ... It can be tricky when the tank isn't as tall as you'd like. If you have a very tall tank of about 60cm, you can have tall platforms plus continuous deep bedding. If you not, there is the option of a raised lid to allow more height for the wheel. It's the shelves in toppers that can sometimes cause issues for some gerbils, so you can have essentially a topper without the shelves.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 9, 2023 13:17:19 GMT -8
So... I've been having thoughts about Astra and Twiglet's housing situation, and I've decided I should give the Eco Habitat another try, but in an incredibly (probably absurdly) gradual way this time. I don't think I will able to make a raised lid for the Marrakesh any time soon which means they don't have a decent wheel which I'm not happy about. I measured the internal dimensions of both the Marrakesh they are in now and the Eco Habitat, and they're exactly the same length but the Eco Habitat is a few centimetres wider, as well as being taller. I don't believe that this amount in space in itself is the cause of their issues, but it's probably more likely that the sudden move back to the Eco Habitat each time triggered something in Astra so that she returned to the way she used to behave there before. So if I want to get them back into the Eco Habitat I need to do it in a way so that she never notices a massive change. For now, I have simply placed the Marrakesh inside the Eco Habitat (well I did have to remove one side of the Eco Habitat to make it fit). I'll keep it there for a week or two. I have also cleaned the Eco Habitat thoroughly to hopefully remove any old scents. After that, I plan to make a divider and divide the Eco Habitat down to exactly the same size as the Marrakesh, and I will set that space up exactly the same with all the old bedding. I will also cover the sides of the Eco Habitat with something to replicate the solid sides of the Marrakesh. If I feel like it I could even replicate the limited height of the Marrakesh by building up the floor in some way, such as by using the glass base of the Marrakesh and propping it up on bricks. I'm not sure if I'll go that far or not. Logically, I think if I can replicate the Marrakesh environment as exactly as possible, and not make it obvious to Astra that she's back in her old enclosure, I don't see how she could possibly cause issues again. If every single change is so incremental as to be insignificant, it seems like it ought to work. To me it seems foolproof. But who knows the mind of a gerbil? At least if I make only very small changes at a mind, I should be able to identify if there is some specific factor that triggers issues, although I think it's unlikely to be one specific thing. Longer term the plan would be to very gradually change the environment back to how it used to be (minus the topper because that's what started the whole thing in the first place) without Astra noticing. Here is the little troublemaker herself:
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Post by Markpd on Jun 10, 2023 3:17:44 GMT -8
Sorry for side tracking your thread somewhat below, but at least it is related! Your trouble maker looks very beautiful there , and as if butter wouldn't melt in her mouth! Btw, I can't remember what you've done to date, did you already try to put them in the Eco habitat without the topper? The other option is to have the wheel, sand bath etc on platforms. If there are concerns around the platforms causing territorial behaviour, you can make them just big enough to hold the wheel/sand bath, so there's no extra for a gerbil to "claim". This is what I'm doing at the moment with Astra and Twiglet. Many gerbils are just fine with toppers and tank dividers though. The first pair to live in my Eco Habitat with the topper (Lily and Daisy) were totally fine there. They were a very solid pair though. I think it's probably not a good enclosure for a pair with existing tensions. Well, having the wheel etc. on platforms means there is no deep bedding. In my case: I do use platforms. My enclosures are 50 cm high (I think that is 20 inches). The wheel is officially 28 cm high (without the stand, I think), a plateau would be about 16 cm high, it all JUST fits in my gerbilarium. If I don't separate the wheel from the digging area I will have to restrict the bedding to about 15 cm, which is hardly a good amount of bedding for gerbils to build tunnel systems. I prefer to have 30 to 40 cm of bedding and split the tank into two areas, but then it takes a divider (or a topper). I wish there was a solution ... There is a solution, and I've already posted about it (although nearly 3 years ago now, hmm perhaps I should add it to the FAQ [edit], actually I already did mention it, but not in relation to declanning, and there's no photos shown, but their are links. I've edited it a little to mention the possible issue with toppers and declanning). Indeed, if you've seen any pics of my boys cage you would have seen the solution too . My tank is also 50cm deep and I've had a 30cm wheel in it along with bedding up to 30cm deep. You just need a raised lid with tall (ish) platforms, I made it using 1/2" wire mesh, although it isn't very elegant and a little flimsy, especially the taller lid (it was intended as a short term temporary build, which has ended up being long term as I still haven't sorted out my 7ft tank!). A better build would be to make a wooden frame and staple wire mesh to that. Anyway, this is what I did (this is the right hand lid with the smaller 25cm wheel, but you get the idea. I added more bedding later on, btw that's an old photo with Blake in it :') ). That platform is about 28cm tall, but the later one I made is ~31cm, I use that one for the bigger 30cm wheel as it sits closer to the floor (they both have the same stand). I made a taller lid for that combo.
This is a new photo, atm the 30cm wheel is missing as I need to reline the running surface (I keep forgetting to buy new cork lining!), but you get the idea. This setup was originally for Blake and Avon after I had to separate them, but as Gan and Vila aren't separated, they can both use the remaining wheel for now. The bedding in the middle here is ~30cm deep (they're not very tidy my boys ).
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 10, 2023 8:40:27 GMT -8
I had already tried them in the Eco Habitat without the topper a couple of times, but that was moving them back to it directly from another tank rather than the very phased approach.
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Post by LilyandDaisy on Jun 27, 2023 13:08:08 GMT -8
The gerbils have been back in the Eco Habitat for a week now. I was able to use the Marrakesh lid as a long divider to create a space about the same size as the Marrakesh terrarium (but higher - I decided it wasn't necessary to simulate the lower height of the Marrakesh). After the photo was taken I did also cover one side and the back with cardboard to simulate the solid sides of the Marrakesh. One side is already covered by a side from the Marrakesh which I used to wedge the divider in place. The gerbils still seem fine. The atmosphere between them feels easy and relaxed. During the first 24 hours after the move Astra was occasionally being a bit annoying, hanging around Twiglet and asking her to groom her, though Twiglet didn't seem too interested or bothered. Then I added the cardboard to the sides and she calmed down, which was interesting. After another week or two I will start gradually moving the divider.
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Post by Markpd on Jul 4, 2023 14:29:45 GMT -8
Then I added the cardboard to the sides and she calmed down, which was interesting Curious, perhaps she didn't like the open viewed sides?
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