not just a SGT???

[southy]

so Mickey is still alive. I did not get him surgery in December after all. hes very skinny. what i thought, and the vet thought was a SGT looks like something else now. what ever it is, is making all his fur fall out. its reaching his arms now. maybe it is a SGT but it seems like a skin infection is bleeding and spread farther. i suppose it may still be a SGT. if it is a general skin infection is it treatable? he is very sick.(see photos) i canceled the surgery. i was not even sure if it was a SGT.


how he used to look on Dec 03 the day i canceled the sgt surgery 😢:


is it metasticized SGT? or a deadly skin infection

edit: also his bro Baby Scooter had bleeding/ leaking from his ear and SG. their 2 older bros (the ones i forgot to water for a few weeks >_<) are in great health now actually. Snowball did have a ear infection when i had forgot their water.
also, i live in FL and ive had windows open when the temps below 80. ive also had some mold in fabrics in my room. is it possible mold got in the gerbil tanks? could it be a mold caused infection? is it any thing besides SGT? can anyone figure out a diagnosis if its not. thanks

[southy]

I am concerned that this may be an infectious disease that these 2 gerbils may have picked up. And i suspect where, I was dating a guy who had an old china cabinet, and he put my 2 gerbils in it. He thought it was a cool idea to make a gerbil habitat of it cause it had doors that opened at knee length. He also put a cut tree branch in it for them to climb on. Any ways my gerbils lived in it for a day. Im not sure if it was clean. Could my gerbils have contracted a disease from it? I do not have a disease afaik, and Ive been petting and handling them and some times i did not wash my hands. Sorry if it seems careless of me to let my gerbils die this way. 😳😭
Could it be a infectious disease? Its possible that deer ticks or deer mice droppings/dna might have contacted my 2 gerbs. This is dangerous cause I could get sick too, or it could spread to my other 2 gerbils. 😱

kingcounty.gov/depts/health/communicable-diseases/zoonotic/facts-resources/diseases-by-animal/pocket-pets.aspx

Update: Mickey is now in the throes of death. And also, the loss of fur on the entire underside, seems unusual. I had a gerbil 15 years ago who had SGT and had no fur loss. Just a black bump. But Mickey !!! lost alot of fur and seemed to have lost layers of skin in large scabs on his entire underside !!!

[LilyandDaisy]

I'm so sorry Mickey has deteriorated. I haven't seen anything like this before. It could be some of skin parasite so you could consider treating his brother and your other gerbils with topical ivermectin just in case.

[southy]

Feb 12, 2023 13:39:28 GMT -8 LilyandDaisy said:

I'm so sorry Mickey has deteriorated. I haven't seen anything like this before. It could be some of skin parasite so you could consider treating his brother and your other gerbils with topical ivermectin just in case.

So this was actually not an SGT?
Is this communicable to humans? I have handled them sometimes and not washedm y hands, mostly I have petted Mickey on his fur outside of his lesions. Will it spread to the other one?
Where do I get ivermectin. Do I have to go to a vet? Can I order it online or find it at a store?

Mickey is now dying in the corner. Hes still breathing. I see his organs are exposed and his skin on his underside is gone. will this affect me?
Maybe their litter has parasites in it from the humidity???
This what I thought was a SGT on Mickey started a year ago. after my "ex" (XD) had put them in the china cabinet. who knows if it had some thing in it. Good thing I did not get the surgery because it must not be a SGT. But if this parasite spread to me i have to get medical treatment asap.

edit: he just died
is Beaphar - Anti-Parasite Spot On (Hamster/Gerbil) on amazon.co.uk going to work for them?

[southy]

So Mickeys death was preventable with mite/parasite treatement??? T_T
Come to think of it, the other 2 have been itching as if tiny bugs are biting them. I did not think it was deadly. Could Mickey have had a SGT that got infected badly by mites or something else? How deadly is what im dealing with? Will it infect all my gerbils?
Will i be able to get rid of it with tank cleaning or will the gerbils keep carrying it to clean tanks?
I tried to purchase ivermectin (Beaphar anti- mite with ivermeftin) from amazon.co.uk and i got declined and my bank thought it was fraud. I think ivermectin might be illegal here in the US bc of 19. What else can i give them? consult a vet i guess? but they did not know what Mickey really had. What ever it was is not killing his bro, at least not yet. What should i do? Get mite spray? I dont know what is safe for them. I dont think my local vet will know anything

[LilyandDaisy]

I'm so sorry Mickey has died.

I should clarify that the parasite suggestion was just an idea, not a definite diagnosis.

I'm not sure of the legal status of ivermectin in other countries, but in the UK you can buy the topical version for animal use over the counter. I have used the Beaphar one in the past, and also the Pharmaq Ivermectin (0.1% for small ornamental birds). This one is much cheaper if you need to treat multiple animals but you need to weigh each animal first to find the right dose.

If over-the-counter topical stuff doesn't help (or you can't get any), and they're still itching, you'll need to see a vet for something different/stronger or a more accurate diagnosis if it turns out not to be parasites.

I wouldn't use mite spray personally. It's a different drug (permethrin) and I'm unsure whether that's safe for rodents.

[betty]

This fur loss is very strange - although as suggested above looks most like a very strong skin irritation - but as it is only so defined on the tummy - I am not sure why a parasite might only cause itching there - unless it is a contact allergen (something they only rub their tummies on?).

I am still a litte unclear as to whether the enclosure with the branch in was a recent thing - or whether that was a year ago (as if both the (possible) SGT and the enclosure both happened over a year ago). If the latter is the case, then it is less likely to be a parasite or something you can catch.

However, the only way to be sure would be to have Mickey PM'd by a vet (if possible now) to find out exactly what it was - they can certainly do skin scrapes to look for parasites and fungus etc. I would also perhaps treat the whole enclosure room and all the enclosures aseptically - and as separate units - so clean the room/s they are in from top to bottom (in that order) and also their enclosures. Make sure you wash your hands before switching between enclosures - even for feeding - and make sure you don't swap anything between the enclosures at all for several weeks. Use minimum substrate or only dust-extracted paper/card based options to reduce possible irritations while you are watching them.

Ivermectin is great stuff - and you vet will have heard of it and any suitable alternatives I am sure - or call another vet anywhere for over the phone advice. Possibly - if easier - contact the American Gerbil Society for advice on sourcing suitable medications.

Do keep us updated as it sounds like a very stressful time. Someone is always here to respond.

[southy]

Feb 15, 2023 10:06:13 GMT -8 betty said:

This fur loss is very strange - although as suggested above looks most like a very strong skin irritation - but as it is only so defined on the tummy - I am not sure why a parasite might only cause itching there - unless it is a contact allergen (something they only rub their tummies on?).

I am still a litte unclear as to whether the enclosure with the branch in was a recent thing - or whether that was a year ago (as if both the (possible) SGT and the enclosure both happened over a year ago). If the latter is the case, then it is less likely to be a parasite or something you can catch.

However, the only way to be sure would be to have Mickey PM'd by a vet (if possible now) to find out exactly what it was - they can certainly do skin scrapes to look for parasites and fungus etc. I would also perhaps treat the whole enclosure room and all the enclosures aseptically - and as separate units - so clean the room/s they are in from top to bottom (in that order) and also their enclosures. Make sure you wash your hands before switching between enclosures - even for feeding - and make sure you don't swap anything between the enclosures at all for several weeks. Use minimum substrate or only dust-extracted paper/card based options to reduce possible irritations while you are watching them.

Ivermectin is great stuff - and you vet will have heard of it and any suitable alternatives I am sure - or call another vet anywhere for over the phone advice. Possibly - if easier - contact the American Gerbil Society for advice on sourcing suitable medications.

Do keep us updated as it sounds like a very stressful time. Someone is always here to respond.

Thanks for the replies. The china cabinet was over a year ago. He started getting a sgt after that. Also possible that he got the sgt from my having had metal tanktoppers on their tanks (good way to split tank with out conatruction btw 😅) . as Mickey and now Scooter may possibly have sgt as well. I noticed him picking at it and it was bleeding one time (but not today or lately at least) but when i handled him i did feel a bump. Those metal toppers also sometimes get rusty. It could have been caused by a number of things.Since Scooter is ok still, and my other 2 Fluffy and Snowball are healthy and no sgt on those 2 (and they too have had been using tank toppers almost all their lifes) i guess what Mickey had was a SGT and not parasite? Maybe he lost fir from aspen bedding or my not changing bedding enough, maybe even mites or no see ems. I cleaned all my tanks and toppers and food dishes etc other day. Yea it was hard losing him on Valentines. Im not too sad cause i got 3 more. I might go see if Petsmart has a single female. Id like to breed again, tho i ama little careless sometimes. My 3 remaining are over 2 yrs old and healthy. They live longer than the pet store ones cause i bred them. Hopefully they live alot longer. I must be alot more careful from now on. For awhile i was travelling alot and took them with me. Too much stress for them.
Also i ordered ivermectin from amazon.uk just in case they need it.

[betty]

Well, do keep us updated on their progress for sure.

Perhaps put a short hold on geting more gerbils until we have found out a bit more about the symptoms going on here - and we are sure that we are all healthy (other than the SGTs of course). Waiting until they have been treated with the ivermectin and then fully cleaned out again would be best anyway - just incase it is mites as you don't want to bring a new gerbil in if you still have issues.

Male gerbils are fertile their entire life and 3-4 is a common age for a non-SGT gerbil - so delaying slightly on the female shouldn't cause to much of a problem if you can't resist breeding again.

[southy]

Feb 19, 2023 12:50:06 GMT -8 betty said:

Well, do keep us updated on their progress for sure.

Perhaps put a short hold on geting more gerbils until we have found out a bit more about the symptoms going on here - and we are sure that we are all healthy (other than the SGTs of course). Waiting until they have been treated with the ivermectin and then fully cleaned out again would be best anyway - just incase it is mites as you don't want to bring a new gerbil in if you still have issues.

Male gerbils are fertile their entire life and 3-4 is a common age for a non-SGT gerbil - so delaying slightly on the female shouldn't cause to much of a problem if you can't resist breeding again.

thanks. right. im not going to get one right away. Im sometimes not a great gerbilmom, lol, (separate thread i guess but id like to breed 1 litter ie separate dad then re unite him with the sons somehow) but id like to breed baby Scooter . Hes a beautiful pied burmese. And hes rather docile , not too hyper and friendly. The remaining 3 gerbs are doing good now. no signs of bug bites. i think maybe it was no see ems.i do keep my windows open here (north FL by the beach) in the winter .so bugs get in sometimes. but i think what Mickey has is actually sgt that got irratated from an allergy or maybe mites or no see ems. Scooter did have signs of sg irratation. the other 2 are healthy tho (they bounced back after i forgot the water >_<)... ok im not a great gerbmom but idlike to keep the family line going (theres a mystery gene for docile/dwarf gerbil from the dads bro the lil bro would sit in my hand with out running away and he was not hyper at all like most gerbs. so litter 2 when i bred them had 4 docile gerbs). i guess maybe keeping windows open and my not cleaning them enough might make me a bad parent but i want to try 😅

[betty]

The docile gerbils would indeed be a curiosity - as would the causes of the dwarfism if it was true dwarfism rather than runts or failure to thrive pups. Unfortunately though, these are often just a one-off congenital issue due to a quirk in genetics/biology rather than anything heritable and repeatable.

I mean more docile gerbils would be great for newbie owners, for those who are rather frantic in their enclosure and for those needing regular handling due to illness etc, but would they lose their gerbil spark that we all love at the same time?

Certainly is interesting to ponder the longer term effects of something 'different' popping up.

[Markpd]

I think it unlikely that leaving a window open would make it more likely they get mites (insects coming in shouldn't be an issue), what do you think betty and LilyandDaisy ? Where do mites normally come from anyway?

Also leaving a window open should reduce the likely hood of any mould occurring (unless you live in a high humidity area and have air conditioning).

Oh, just thought of something, re irritated belly skin, maybe it was a combination of SGT (causing broken skin there) and an allergic reaction to the bedding? You mentioned you use Aspen bedding, some gerbils are allergic to Aspen bedding.

Btw, something you should consider for future gerbils if they fall ill, to say an SGT etc, and they are too ill or elderly to be operated on (or you simply can't afford it), is to have them put to sleep, rather than letting the illness take its course.

[LilyandDaisy]

Mites live in things such as food, hay, wood or on animal fur, and generally you would need several of them to start an infestation. They're unlikely come in through a window.

It's possible that some gerbils could suffer more from mites than others depending on how their immune system reacts (either overreacts or doesn't react). Whether this might have some connection to SGTs I don't know. Some tumours can either cause or be caused by suppressed immune function (hamsters with lymphoma often get mite infestations, for example).

In terms of the irritation being only on the belly, I suppose it's possible some parasites might be more attracted to the warmer areas of the body so mainly the belly.

[southy]

Feb 22, 2023 4:04:18 GMT -8 LilyandDaisy said:

Mites live in things such as food, hay, wood or on animal fur, and generally you would need several of them to start an infestation. They're unlikely come in through a window.

It's possible that some gerbils could suffer more from mites than others depending on how their immune system reacts (either overreacts or doesn't react). Whether this might have some connection to SGTs I don't know. Some tumours can either cause or be caused by suppressed immune function (hamsters with lymphoma often get mite infestations, for example).

In terms of the irritation being only on the belly, I suppose it's possible some parasites might be more attracted to the warmer areas of the body so mainly the belly.

Thanks for the info everybody. I got some paper bedding yesterday. I heard aspen is the least allergic and cedar is the most. i also use pine. yes i live in florida. i like being in a warm room but its not good for gerbils i think. ive had to close windows more when it gets hot out.small bugs get in my place. it does seem like mickey had a sgt and something irratated his skin as well.but whats weird is at his death it looked like it ate his skin off completely. maybe it was humidity. i took photos of his body. should i share it? its too graphic. idk about euthanasia. i guess im cheap. i want to be with them in their last days. i just dont know what to do bc theyre so small and surgery could kill them
i just cant know for sure if baby Scooter also got an sgt, if what Mickey had was even an sgt.

I just picked up baby Scooter and he has a bump on his sg 😨 so thats why i was thinking maybe they came into contact with the same thing that might cause sgt or cancers. (i had 2 gerbs who i had let out in my room to run around where in the past was roach spray residue in the carpet and they had some kind of lung cancer) . My other 2 whom i have not let out at all into any strange environmemts dont have sgt or sg bumps afaik. Sorry if that sounds negligent. It does seem like when i let gerbils out in my room or in enclosures like a china cabinet something in it could trigger a cancer? Or i guess its just genetic. sgt seems like a common disease. hopefully baby Scooter does not have a cancerous sgt too. i wanted to breed him :/ The dads bro was a beautiful lil stunted white with long fur and black eyes. I mean his fur was unusually long. And hed sit in my hands for hours. He only lived a month after i got them

[Markpd]

Re sharing the photo, you could just post the link to it here, rather than linking it as an image (the [img_] tags), that way people can see it or not by choice.

Yea I see that you'd want to be with them until their last days, but that's not fair to them if they're suffering.

And yea surgery is risky, my vet told me there's a 25% chance of small mammals not recovering from the anaesthetic! But that's a separate choice as to whether to put a pet to sleep.

Not sure why you think your china cabinet could have caused the SGT (like you said, they commonly happen anyway), what was in that cabinet then?